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Thoughts & Comments
Dr. Doom Responds . . .
. . . and essentially admits we've been right all along

Thomas Brown  ( about me )
Posted 02/27/2009
bankstocks.com
tbrown@bankstocks.com

At SeekingAlpha, Nouriel Roubini says that, contrary to my assertion, he did not screw up his loss estimate for Wells Fargo. Here’s what he has to say, in full:

Sir, your attack it totally misplaced. I never made any prediction about credit losses in individual US banks. I only used macro variable to forecast average losses on tranches of different types of loans and securities for the AGGREGATE of US banks; this is the same approach used by the IMF and Goldman Sachs to derive estimate of aggregate expected credit losses for all US banks, not for individual institutions. It was Time magazine that used my macro estimates of average losses to then make inferences and estimates about individual US banks. When you go to the individual bank level you of course need to take into account individual bank's provisioning and other details to infer capital losses. So you may or may not be right about what is happening at Well Fargo; but the comments you make have NOTHING to do with what I have written. So you should correct the record on this. I never wrote that Well Fargo has an additional $117 billion of losses. I have provided an estimate of aggregate credit losses for all US financial institutions based on standard estimated of average losses from macro assumptions.  

This is the opposite of persuasive. First, I don’t recall seeing Roubini’s letter to Time urging it to “correct the record” on the $117 billion loss estimate for Wells it published based on his macro projections. I assume Stephen Gandel ran his loss numbers on individual banks by Roubini before he posted them on February 19, and would be shocked if he didn’t. I may be wrong. Perhaps Roubini might clarify this point. Regardless, if Roubini is suddenly so hopped up about a $117 billion loss estimate for Wells that he’s associated with, I don’t get why he’s only getting around to disowning it now, since it’s been out there for over a week. Actually, I do get why. I think Roubini is being disingenuous.

And Roubini is definitely being disingenuous when he writes that I “may or may not be right about what’s happening at Wells Fargo.” Less than a week ago, recall, he was unequivocal that the company was a goner. Here is what he told the Wall Street Journal in an interview published on Saturday: 

Wells Fargo took over Wachovia. It doesn't work! You can't take two zombie banks, put them together, and make a strong bank. It's like having two drunks trying to keep each other standing.

So six days ago, Wells Fargo was a “zombie bank.” Now, Roubini only deals in “macro variables.”  

Meanwhile, Roubini fails to address my main objection to his antics, that he insists on blabbing publicly on the solvency of individual federally guaranteed institutions, a topic he now admits he knows nothing about. Unfortunately, prophecies about highly levered institutions sometimes become self-fulfilling, especially when they come from “sagelike” commentators like Nouriel Roubini. Now that Roubini has come clean that, when it comes to individual banks, he’s basically full of it, one would hope he’d have the good sense to keep his lip buttoned.

There’s no doubt Nourel Roubini has gotten the macro picture exactly right so far. That’s to his credit. My suggestion to him is that he stick with the macro calls.  

What do you think? Let me know!

Related: 

Dr. Doom's Sketchy Calculation

Roubini's Wacky Wells Loss Estimate: It's Not Just Academic


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marvpdice@yahoo.com Posted On 2/27/2009 11:13:09 AM

Tom..thanx for the great piece on wells fargo...it's so easy to "join the crowd" of the bears ...if fact as you know deeply discounted stocks become a "no brainer" for the cowd followers who "KNOW prices are going lower..timr for Dr. doom to remain silent on thing he is not well acquainted with..i well remember your 1990 call on citibank..you stood alone in your buy recommendation "ar the Bottom" with citi having huge stock price moves....keep up the good work......Marvin p Dice

Carsten Valgreen Posted On 2/27/2009 11:25:53 AM

"There’s no doubt Nouriel Roubini has gotten the macro picture exactly right so far. " I remember Nouriel calling that a recession was just about to occur on numorous occations in 2005-7. He had the guts and the stamina to be right in the end, and he has had some good calls along the way. But the sentence reminds me about the way people wrote about Robert Shiller in 2002 - my god he insisted it was a irrational exuberance all the way back in fall 1996.

Dr.Roberts Posted On 2/27/2009 11:40:32 AM

Me thinks you nailed the Dr. of Gloom Tom. "It was Time magazine that used my macro estimates of average losses to then make inferences and estimates about individual US banks" protests the gloomy doctor innocently. Total BS when you refer to one of the the Gloom Man's major contributions to the current crisis... z(wells) + z(wach) = 1 Z(WELLS) Of course shame shame on any serious information consumer for relying on Time magazine to begin with. Case in point, check out their 25 biggest culprits of the meltdown crisis. It is almost complete propaganda.

Ben Bernanke Posted On 2/27/2009 3:39:32 PM

Great work Tom. The Time article is clearly attributing the loss estimates for individual banks to Roubini. If he had such a problem with this, he most certainly should have objected to the article right away. But he didn't until you called out the error in the calculation. Roubini probably isn't honest enough to admit a mistake. Even if it was technically Time's fault, he should still own up to it. That is the right thing to do, but his publicity-inflated ego will probably make that impossible. Obviously Roubini has been generally correct in his macro call, but even his loss estimates over the past two years have increased substantially. So he has been dreadfully wrong as well. Now it's a race to the bottom. Quick, who can come up with the largest trillion dolalr loss estimate!? Incidentally, when the h*** is the SEC going to suspend MTM accounting and force banks to price securities based on cost or cash flow?! MTM is only 10 years old. It is not some sacred part of our financial system. It costs taxpayers nothing to suspend it. Let's get an article on this!

A reader Posted On 2/27/2009 7:15:36 PM

You're nuts, Tom. This is what Time Magazine says: "Apply Roubini's overall 13% loss projection, and the conclusion is that Wells may be sitting on a $117 billion loss." I don't find any flaw here. It's very clear that Roubini's contribution is the "overall 13% loss projection", which Time's columnist used to generate a conclusion. I certainly don't see how *he* needs to write and correct Time's conclusion. All that's needed is for Tom Brown to improve his reading comprehension skills.

tom brown Posted On 2/27/2009 7:27:15 PM

So A Reader, you want us all to believe that the extent of Roubini's analysis is a single loss percentage applied to the company's entire loss portfolio without regard to any other factors like writedowns already taken, recent performance or underwriting skill? And you want us to believe this is good analysis? You want us to believe that his subsequent comments to the WSJ that Wells Fargo was a "zombie bank" did not imply he believed the numbers published in Time? For whatever reason, you are clearly not objective or you are simply an idiot.

rosebud Posted On 2/27/2009 11:51:18 PM

Dr R too smug to admit a wrong call but he keeps infesting the airwaves. Shame in the media for allowing anti-American sentiment and catering to so-called ecomonists. Too bad the focus is not on Americans who felt necessary to have matching SUVs and used their homes' equity like ATMs. It is easy to blame the banks for the economic crisis but individuals need to own up to living beyond their means - no regulatory agency or TARP funds can fix that. We need to own part of the resposibility and suck it up! Great job - Tom! Great job Tom - keep good ole doc in check!

Mark Posted On 3/2/2009 12:09:21 PM

It is difficult to understand whether Dr. Roubini definitely botched the estimate or if you are inferring that he missed the estimated based on the Time article. Can anyone clarify? That being said, you would increase your own credibilityby by revising your subprime loss analyses from 2007 and early in 2008. Itt looks you you were way off the mark -- the ridiculous estimates offered by rating agencies are now looking optimistic, and over-the-top UBS' estimates now look like they might be realistic even with the welfare benefit provided by the Obama plan.

Mark Posted On 3/2/2009 12:40:08 PM

Good for you in caliling Roubini to the mat. If Robuini wants to call Wells Fargo a zombie bank, he should back it up with loss estimates for Wells or some other supporting specifics. If he doesn't have them, he should have the guts to admit "zombie" was an unfair characterization, as well as the other actions you mention. As mentioned previously, it is a little hypocritical for you to criticize without revisiting your subprime loss estimates. At the time, I thought your analysis and reasoning seemed reasonable (though perhaps a bit overconfident). In hindsight, it seems way off. Either pull a rabbit out of a hat or be the man that you are asking Roubini to be and admit you were wrong.

dmg Posted On 3/3/2009 12:54:49 PM

who cares? u came out in july of 2008 and brazenly said it was a huge buying opportunity. Where have u been lately?

bonds Posted On 3/3/2009 2:58:30 PM

a lot of Roubini's prognostications need fact checking. Look at his claim that the US banking system is bankrupt. In that claim he does not PV losses and he does not give the banks any credit for their current and future earnings. I think he is dangerous since to many people listen to him without knowing the facts!

puredakota Posted On 3/3/2009 3:56:26 PM

At the moment, Tom's comments above make it look like Dr. Roubini's views have been getting more attention than they deserve. If Dr. Roubini has something more to say (in fairness to himself and Wells Fargo), I would really like to hear it.

puredakota Posted On 3/3/2009 3:58:36 PM

At the moment, Tom's comments above make it look like Dr. Roubini's views have been getting more attention than they deserve. If Dr. Roubini has something more to say (in fairness to himself and Wells Fargo), I would really like to hear it.

Chaim Witz Posted On 3/3/2009 5:30:41 PM

You are assuming that his job is to provide solid economic analysis. It once was. Now, as a star, his job is to generate as much press his possible. He is doing an even better job at that than he did with his economic analysis.

RayBenz Posted On 3/3/2009 7:04:12 PM

I hope Roubini is enjoying his 15 minutes. I'd say he's about 12 minutes into right now. [Got your book deal finalized, Nouriel? Tick-tock.] His overall "macro call" (what horse shit) is that we will all be eating cat food under a bridge by 4Q. NYU is an over-priced under, faculty'ed B-school if I ever saw one. If Oprah brings on a staff economist, he'd be perfect. Right up there with Dr. Phil.

mikeynmichigan Posted On 3/3/2009 7:34:04 PM

roubini, while he has been right in many cases, has overstayed his welcome. A small 'chink' in the armour, but it still speaks volumes. This is the bear version of the techbubble boys of the late 90's......ala......."yhoo to 1000" or was that qcom? nouriel.........quit while you are ahead, my friend!!!!!!!

zj1018 Posted On 3/3/2009 8:08:59 PM

Sorry Tom. If I remember correctly, last time you got into a pissing match with someone, they prevailed. Something called FMD. Ring a bell?

Pat Trammell Posted On 3/4/2009 9:43:28 AM

Tom, this is the difference between someone who understands banks and banking (you), and someone who understands macro markets (Dr. Doom) and thinks that makes him a bank analyst. He should stick to grandstanding about his market call, and enjoying his 15 minutes of fame. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion. Pat Trammell

EisSteveMan Posted On 3/4/2009 3:37:05 PM

Maybe Roubini's having his 15 minutes right now but he certainly has more credibility than some bullish Bankstocks.com contributors.

EisSteveMan Posted On 3/4/2009 5:29:29 PM

Maybe Roubini's having his 15 minutes right now but he certainly has more credibility than some bullish Bankstocks.com contributors.

jim Posted On 3/4/2009 8:40:24 PM

Sure Tom your right about banks. Just ignore c is a buck and bac is 3. But your right about banks they are all welll capitalized. lol

Scott Posted On 3/5/2009 9:56:28 AM

What about the possible ratings agency downgrades talk this morning? WFC trading under 9 in pre-market, down from 12 and change the day you wrote this article. Finally, it's hard to see what credibility you have after the call of July '08 and "the next bull market in financials that began in July of 2008" (CNBC) as well as the complacent chatter you presented re the sub prime issue and the "30 day buckets, 60 day buckets, 90 day buckets............", as well as the "pig winding its way thru the python" analogy (pig larger than any of us thought). I have no problem with you taking issue with Dr R. That said, until your own loss modeling improves you may want to take your own advice and button your lip.

eddie Posted On 3/8/2009 3:19:18 AM

tom, how about you take a vacation? in July you called "the" bottom, you said that Ackman is wrong about MBIA (fyi- mbia is at $2 now). you keep saying that everything is just okay. come on man. you are a joke.

eddie Posted On 3/8/2009 10:06:25 PM

tom, how about you take a vacation? in July you called "the" bottom, you said that Ackman is wrong about MBIA (fyi- mbia is at $2 now). you keep saying that everything is just okay. come on man. you are a joke.

cjcdpfl Posted On 3/16/2009 1:38:02 PM

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/208703/Roubini-Says-Rally-Is-a-%22Dead-Cat-Bounce%22?tickers=^dji,^gspc
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