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Fudging and Distortions at 60 Minutes
The show's attack on Herb and Marion Sandler is both factually incorrect and unfair

Thomas Brown  ( about me )
Posted 02/19/2009
bankstocks.com
tbrown@bankstocks.com

Did you see the 60 Minutes report on Herb and Marion Sandler’s World Savings on Sunday? If you did, you saw a travesty. The report managed to get virtually all relevant facts related to World’s marketing and underwriting practices precisely backwards—and in the process unfairly maligned, even libeled, two of the most able, honorable financial services executives of the past half century. The report was essentially a work of fiction masquerading as journalism. The people at CBS News ought to be ashamed of themselves.

I first began covering World Savings’s parent, Golden West Financial, back in 1980, when it and all other thrifts were suffering through a period when an inverted yield curve was thrashing industry profits. Even then, Golden West was the best-run, best performing of publicly traded thrifts—as it had been essentially since the company was founded in 1963. Since 1980, Golden West remained the industry leader, whether measured by credit quality, earnings growth, overall profitability, or just about any other measure you can name. Its reputation for integrity was unquestioned. By the time the Sandlers sold Golden West to Wachovia in 2006, their legacy in the financial services industry was unmatched.  

None of this, by the way, is a matter of dispute among people who follow the industry even casually. And yet the 60 Minutes report would have viewers believe that Herb and Marion Sandler were unethical in their pursuit of corporate profits. That’s crazy. I have known many great bankers over the years. But the list of true industry legends is much shorter; it includes people like Lew Preston of JP Morgan, John Medlin and Bud Baker of Wachovia, and Carl Reichardt of Wells Fargo. Herb and Marion Sandler belong on that list, as well. They weren’t just great bankers—they were business heroes!

All of which is a long way of saying that the reporters and producers at CBS News (Surprise!) simply don’t know what they’re talking about.  

60 Minutes notes that the Sandlers refused to be interviewed. Given the obviously tendentious nature of CBS’s approach, I don’t blame them. But Herb Sandler did provide CBS with a huge amount of relevant information about World’s business practices in two letters to the show’s producer, Graham Messick. In them, Sandler debunks many of the factual assertions CBS would later try to get away with, and cast’s material doubt on the credibility of the show’s main source, an ex-World employee named Paul Bishop. But CBS essentially ignored everything Sandler had to say. It wasn’t about to let facts get in the way of a good story.

Let’s look at some 60 Minutes’ charges, and the actual facts, and you’ll see what I mean.

  1. Who is the accuser, anyway? The report largely relies on an interview with Bishop, the ex-employee who worked at World Savings starting in 2002 until he was terminated in 2006.  In both his letters, Sandler urges Messick to check Bishop’s background, and asks in particular that Messick get Bishop’s permission to open up his employment file. (Personnel files can’t be legally released without the employee’s permission, for privacy reasons.) We don’t know if Messick bothered to. Even by CBS’s own account, though, Bishop is someone with a career history that ought to arouse some suspicion regarding his credibility. “He’d been a top salesman at IBM and spent years as a stock broker,” the report says. “Most everywhere he went, he had a reputation for speaking his mind and ruffling feathers.” My translation: the guy couldn’t cut it in three different industries, in part because he’s an abrasive jerk.

    This is the individual who’s the main source for CBS’s story. Yet CBS seemed to not have the slightest curiosity as to the details of his background. For a story so damaging to the Sandlers--and all the employees of World Savings, for that matter--to rely so heavily on words of one terminated employee strikes me as half-baked journalism.

  1. World Savings supposedly pushed mortgages on people who couldn’t afford them. This charge isn’t just wrong, it’s stupid. Remember, World didn’t sell the mortgages it originated—it kept them on its books. If the company’s goal really were to extract fees at origination and then offload credit risk, World would have sold its loans soon as it could. But the company didn’t do that. Losses on defaulted mortgages can quickly overwhelm fees earned at origination; if the 60 Minutes people don’t get that, they truly don’t have a clue how the lending business works.

  1. World Savings’ “Pick-A-Payment” option ARM was a bad product for consumers. Herb Sandler actually goes into a lot of detail about option ARMs in his letters to Messick. Naturally, everything he says gets ignored. Instead, 60 Minutes simply avoids telling the story of World Savings’s option ARM, why it was offered, why it was successful, and how it was different from other, similar products on the market place.

    So here are the facts. World Savings first started offering the first version of option ARMs in 1981, when it became legal for a thrift to do so.  Over the next 25 years the company’s average annual net chargeoff rate on the product was just 4 basis points, with a peak chargeoff rate of 18 basis points on 1999. This data strongly supports the view that the option Arm product was not inherently risky.

    The table below shows annual losses at Golden West from 1968 through 2005, its last year as an independent company. The point—and it should be glaringly obvious—is that Golden West was not the reckless, unethical underwriter portrayed on 60 Minutes. In fact, it was just the reverse. The people working on the story knew this; Herb Sandler had given them the data. But they ignored him. That's reckless and irresponsible.


    (Source: Golden West Financial)

  2. World Savings supposedly changed its underwriting philosophy and went for volume over quality. Correspondent Scott Pelley reports that “Bishop says he watched the bank famous for quality begin to emphasize quantity.”  Neither Pelley nor Bishop offers any data to support this claim. Yet in his letter to Messick, Sandler provides data that showed that the percentage of applications funded by Golden West declined steadily between 2005 and 1992, to 58% from 68%. If anything, then, the company was steadily tightening its standards. That totally contradicts Bishop’s claim. But, again, the data goes unreported.

 

(Source: Golden West Financial)

60 Minutes’ reckless disregard of the facts is a disgrace. Yes, Golden West’s loan portfolio will suffer incredibly high loan losses--not because of shoddy underwriting. Rather, the properties the company lent against are enduring a one-in-100 year event with respect to home prices. In an environment like that, losses will rise, no matter how judicious you are.
 

Herb and Marion Sandler had an incredibly positive business career. They are in no way responsible for the housing bubble or its subsequent implosion. There’s no shortage of bad actors in the credit mess. 60 Minutes is way off base in claiming that the Sandlers are among them.

What do you think? Let me know!

Related:

Memo To Feds: Stop Meddling In Wells Fargo's Spending Plans

The Worst Financial Services Deal Of The Decade


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acdallas Posted On 2/19/2009 9:34:49 AM

Thank you for going to a lot of trouble to stick up for fairness

adam rust Posted On 2/19/2009 9:44:00 AM

The Sandlers also made significant contributions to essentially start the Center for Responsible Lending, a non-profit policy and advocacy group in Durham, North Carolina. CRL works to thwart unsustainable lending.

Wyld Byll Hyltnyr Posted On 2/19/2009 10:16:27 AM

I blame the ultimate Golden West/Pick A Pay problem on Don Truslow at Wachovia. The Bud Baker Wachovia was know in the southeast as the BBQ Bank - low & slow.

Wyld Byll Hyltnyr Posted On 2/19/2009 10:23:47 AM

I blame the ultimate Golden West/Pick A Pay problem on Don Truslow at Wachovia. The Bud Baker Wachovia was know in the southeast as the BBQ Bank - low & slow.

Old Banker Posted On 2/19/2009 10:31:27 AM

Excellent rebuttal. I worked with John Medlin and Bud Baker many years ago and would agree that they were the epitome of what a good banker should be. Both, interestingly, came up through the Loan Administration ( a/k/a Credit Policy) ranks, as opposed to the line/sales side. They understood risk. Conversely, their principal competitor in North Carolina, NCNB/NationsBank/Bank of America, emphasized a more aggressive tact. I'll leave it to others to determine which approach was best. Wachovia, because of its conservative policies, experienced nominal growth, ultimately being acquired by First Union, something that would have been unheard of and scorned in the 1960s, '70s, and 80s. NCNB, on the other hand, became the most dominant banking player in the country.

Texascommunitybanker Posted On 2/19/2009 10:34:40 AM

Let's see... CBS, Dan Rather, character assasination, George Bush and the National Guard, mysterious sources... now the Sandlers. Yep it all adds up. CBS wanted to present it's views not necessarily the facts. They have done it before and will do it again.

Burton A. Johnson, President Burton A. Johnson Por Posted On 2/19/2009 10:45:52 AM

Tom, You're bang on about the Sandlers. Insofar as I'm aware, their 40 year track record of return for their stockholders was second only to Mr. Buffett's. My investment for my clients in Golden West was in the top three of my investments made in almost 30 years in the business. Incidentally, I took the money when Wachovia bought them, because Golden West, in fact, was the Sandlers. Wachovia, to no one's surprise, just didn't know how to run Golden West, and like so many acquirerers they made a mess of it. Please urge the Sandlers to sue. Few people are as arrogant and duplicitous as the liberal mouthpieces of "60 Minutes." Burton A. Johnson

BJ Posted On 2/19/2009 10:50:36 AM

When has 60 minutes ever been journalism? Sensationalism over facts every time.

ken Posted On 2/19/2009 10:51:21 AM

way to go tom. i hope you sent this to CBS.

First Coast Wave Rider Posted On 2/19/2009 10:57:57 AM

Welcome to 1984.... when good (Sandlers) is bad and bad (the "stimulus" bill) is good!

rasberry Posted On 2/19/2009 11:16:34 AM

I understand your point, but were not the Sandler's guilty of managing the portfolio as if real estate values would never see a reversal of fortune? They had a great business model as long as the market was rising or at least was not the victim of a prolonged slump. The Sandler's plan gave them rate protection, but they never thought, as you pointed out, the perfect storm would show up to destroy the asset value of the portfolio. In my opinion, the Sandler's egregious mistake was the Pick A Pay loans that allowed for a borrower to incur negative amortization at origination with the source or repayment being the sale of the asset. Again, it is as if they never remotely considered the market could turn on them. A good banker is always asking "but what if ....." The banking industry is rife with rules & regulation, but there is little on the books that address the use of negative amortization. If I can digress for a minute, you know, I am not surprised G. Kennedy Thompson couldn't identify the risk associated with Golden West, but I am really perplexed as to why Don Truslow didn't see the mine fields. Don was a "real" Wachovian and had excellent ability when it came to identifying credit risk. Have you considered interviewing John Medlin? It would be interesting to know his thoughts on his bank's demise. Respectfully, R. Allan Schlick

George Posted On 2/19/2009 11:30:13 AM

Why the surprise? These people at CBS never change!

elchang88 Posted On 2/19/2009 11:49:52 AM

Yup, this is the typical 60 Minutes' modus operandi of witchhunts and character assasinations to get ratings.... jump on the bandwagon and find more greedy dirty bankers...

James Dailey Posted On 2/19/2009 12:02:49 PM

I would agree for the most part with rasberry's post. I don't profess to know the Sandlers at all, but it seems to me to be oblivious to conditions on the ground. The Sandlers were like the general back at headquarters who doesn't really know what all the PFC's were doing on the ground. Anyone who thinks there weren't major abuses at all large firms who did a large amount of mortgage business in bubble states is either disingenuous or ignorant of the facts. To echo rasberry, the list of highly successful people who just didn't "get" the credit bubble is long and distinguished - including Tom Brown. Societies that experience credit bubbles always have those successful business people who ride the wave of monetary inflation. Given that the Sandlers were retaining these loans indicates that they were more lucky regarding the timing of the sale to Wachovia than good. The Sandlers deserve credit for their obvious contributions to business and society, but that does not change the fact that if they hadn't sold to Wachovia it is likely that their firm would have suffered the same fate as Washing Mutual.

James Dailey Posted On 2/19/2009 12:06:36 PM

I would agree for the most part with rasberry's post. I don't profess to know the Sandlers at all, but it seems to me to be oblivious to conditions on the ground. The Sandlers were like the general back at headquarters who doesn't really know what all the PFC's were doing on the ground. Anyone who thinks there weren't major abuses at all large firms who did a large amount of mortgage business in bubble states is either disingenuous or ignorant of the facts. To echo rasberry, the list of highly successful people who just didn't "get" the credit bubble is long and distinguished - including Tom Brown. Societies that experience credit bubbles always have those successful business people who ride the wave of monetary inflation. Given that the Sandlers were retaining these loans indicates that they were more lucky regarding the timing of the sale to Wachovia than good. The Sandlers deserve credit for their obvious contributions to business and society, but that does not change the fact that if they hadn't sold to Wachovia it is likely that their firm would have suffered the same fate as Washing Mutual.

Bill Coppedge Posted On 2/19/2009 12:21:19 PM

Tom - Dave Stevens was at Golden West for many years and posted this on my blog: An Insider’s View of Golden West and the Sandlers, by Dave Stevens http://mortgagenewsclips.com/2009/01/11/an-insiders-view-of-golden-west-and-the-sandlers-by-dave-stevens/#comment-16694

Dave Stevens Posted On 2/19/2009 12:37:47 PM

Well Said!

banker1 Posted On 2/19/2009 2:02:28 PM

you say......."World didn’t sell the mortgages it originated—it kept them on its books." well, techinically, they sold them when they sold their bank to Wachovia

Paul Cox Posted On 2/19/2009 2:11:28 PM

It is easy for a prominent media outlet such as 60 minutes to irreversibly damage in ten minutes a reputation for integrity and professionalism that took a lifetime to build. Unfortunately, our society allows little opportunity for redress. Your courageous and detailed portrayal of the other side of the story is crucial for those outside the financial world to better evaluate whether the 60 minute charges are substantive or merely the result of a disgruntled employee. I hope that you send a copy of your response to 60 minutes, and see if they might grant you a minute or two of air time to dispute their findings. Certainly, in the interest of fair journalism, 60 minutes should be willing to consider your request. I just hope that your courageous defense of the Sandlers will receive an airing beyond the banking and bank stock analyst community.

banker1 Posted On 2/19/2009 2:23:26 PM

you say......."World didn’t sell the mortgages it originated—it kept them on its books." well, techinically, they sold them when they sold their bank to Wachovia

RealityCheck Posted On 2/19/2009 2:33:08 PM

Nobody was complaining when housing prices were skyrocketing. In that market it makes sense to pay less than the interest, which is almost the same as taking out equity loans every year based on appreciation like an ATM. oh, then the bubble pops and there are fingers to point. So Wachovia didn't do their diligence adequately and didn't have the foresight to see the bubble about to pop-- that's the way the capitalism cookie crumbles. Apparently the Sandlers built a tremendous amount of value over decades of hard work and then sold at the top of the market; I guess that makes them successful capitalists. There were no faked books, there were no Enron/Madoff antics. It was all there to see and make business decisions on. If you bought a house in 2006, you are paying the price for not predicting the bubble popping. If you bought two houses, it is doubly true. If you bought a whole mortgage company in 2006, well you screwed up big. If you bought crude oil futures in summer 2008, you screwed up. If you bought Microsoft stock in 1985, now you're rich. If you bought gold in 2001, you are loving it. Welcome to capitalism.

Mortgage Finance Professional Posted On 2/19/2009 2:33:38 PM

James Dailey wins for best response. Can't argue the point of 60 minutes ratings motivation, but that's not the point. If Tom Brown (TB) did his job, he would have shown how Golden West's (GW) portfolio is performing now instead of the good an easy times. Wonder how the GW pay option arm's are doing relative to fixed rate products in today environment?

DuaneS Posted On 2/19/2009 2:44:03 PM

Thank you for your very fair and thoughtful piece. I am fortunate to know members of the Sandler Family and they are not only terrific people but model citizens as well. In addition to being business heroes Herb and Marion Sandler are very generous philanthropists who support a wide range of non-profit activities. The only reason their names are not up their with the Rockefellers et al is that they have never gone out of their way to publicize their good deeds. That in itself makes what they do particularly admirable.

Ain't that a Koinkydink ? Posted On 2/19/2009 3:02:49 PM

Keep drinking the Koolaid. Madoff and Stanford were apparently doing well too, up until recently. Maybe the emperors have no clothes after all ?

Pundant Posted On 2/19/2009 4:34:28 PM

Rasberry is at best naieve to suggest that the business model was good as long as prices were going up as if there was a competing business model that proves his point. Can you name a business model that worked during this crisis? It's a silly argument and poorly thought through.

World Victim Posted On 2/19/2009 7:51:24 PM

In 2004 we were sold an Option ARM Pick-A-Pay by an UNLICENSED person who distorted the facts of the loan. The broker was training groups of people to sell these lousy loans. Someone changed many details on our "application". I've recently gotten a copy of this "application", it made me feel physically ill. Oh, and by the way, we were not given the 3 day recession, as the paperwork was prepared ON the third day. Etc., etc. How's that for Truth in Lending?? When the market began to fall I repeatedly tried to refinance in to a fixed rate loan WITH World. They were rude and condescending. I am in contact with MANY people in this same situation with World. Either Sandler is lying through his teeth, or he turned a blind eye. Either way, he IS RESPONSIBLE for his company's actions! We are proof that the 60 Minutes segment is true. Do your homework, as well, and look at all of the sites for homeowners desperately trying to share information and help each other try to save their homes. These sites are numerous.

Bill Denyer Posted On 2/19/2009 9:06:56 PM

Way to go, Mr. Brown. You captured my sentiments, exactly. Thank you! Sincerely, Bill Denyer, former Training Director at World

Pundant Posted On 2/19/2009 10:50:31 PM

World Victim....I close loans for a number of companies including World - as far as I know every loan has to be closed by a third party, typically a title company so World would not have had an option concerning the three day right to cancel. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience, and apparently this is your memory of the event but my experience would indicate that particular rememberance can't be correct. Also, during the closing you would have been privy to the Loan App as it is part of the process - in fact, you would have had to attest that everything on it was true...including initialling the pages. It's apparent you're upset with World but your recollection sounds faulty which causes me to doubt your perception of the events.

World Victim Posted On 2/19/2009 10:56:59 PM

What year(s) were you all working with World? Seems most of those protecting World either retired or quit before the years 2004-2008, or possibly had their heads in the sand. Those were the years these loans were out of control. The facts are the facts. In fact there are reports I found online from Counties worst hit by this mess. Google Oakland/Alameda County. The facts against World are all there. The "whistleblower" even mentioned that World and the Sandlers had good reputations, before these years and the sale to Wachovia. You all can say all you want to say, I for one, am going to the State Attorney General, California Department of Real Estate and any other agency interested in seeing our paperwork.

World Victim Posted On 2/19/2009 11:00:39 PM

Pundant, Apparently that is how you do business. That's great. This was not our experience. We're not alone. If you are doing business according to the law, you too would not believe the mess.

Pat Posted On 2/19/2009 11:18:22 PM

Tom, I normally agree with you, but you've utterly lost it this time. Has it never dawned on you that these people might have been wanting to maximize the bank's value for its sale, and changed their lending standards in order to inflate the numbers? Let's face it, they knew they'd be long gone by the time the shit hit the fan. Sure, they had high standards in the past, but that was before they decided to sell. Get real, man. Putting lipstick on a pig before a sale is the oldest game there is.

rasberry Posted On 2/20/2009 7:18:42 AM

Pundant, I don't think you understand enough about the financial institutions industry to be posting on this board. You want an example of a competing business model? That would be the preponderance of lending institutions that did not portfolio mortgages whose source of repayment was the sale of the asset. Duh !!

Jim Posted On 2/20/2009 7:51:28 AM

Tom Tom Well said. As a banker it may have been a lot easier for us to pick up on some of the comments on the show. I was unaware of the date you have provided here but items 1 and 2 above jumped out at me when they were said. I even remarked to my wife that 1) looks like a malcontent that can't hold a job and 2) holding the assets on the books is a contradiction to quick turn, fee income. I don't think the purchase was a good one for Wachivia but not for the reasons given in the show. I think the cultural differences between the oganizations was too wide, the size of the transaction way to big, and the ability to manage the integration on the other side of the country were too great. Getting to the promised land is more than putting two balance sheets together.

pundant Posted On 2/20/2009 8:55:18 AM

Rasberry, I didn't realize you were a scion in the lending industry. Apparently you could have advised all of these companies in a manner that would have avoided the recent collapse of the lending market. Yeah, sure. You offer a smug response but still haven't provided an example of the model you espouse. Can you give us an example of the business model you champion and be sure it's a company with a concentration of business in California or the comparison has absolutely zero value. I'm really eager to see what you come up with.

horcents Posted On 2/20/2009 11:01:59 AM

Rasberry...If you are going to use a business model that doesn't include the underlieing asset in question then you might as well be talking about the vagaries of the auto industry when the discussion is about owning race horses. Of course Sandler didn't anticipate what happened. His model was based on a downside risk of roughly 15% which would have been well within the expected range based on historical experience. Using your logic, we can't have a mortgage industry.

He who knows Posted On 2/20/2009 11:18:09 AM

Hero worship aside, you don't have a foggy clue what you are talking about. Golden West had no charge-offs in the last 10 years because they would modify or recast loans to keep from showing losses. They held the loans in protfolio because they made more money on modifying. The first thing they did when you called to say "I'm in trouble and can't make my payments" was to ask for a credit card number. They'd then recast your loan for a fee and reduce your payment. They held these loans because they operated under the erroneous assumption that property values were always going to go up. Thier lending practices were not borrower risk-based, they were collateral-risk based. And it turned out, California wasn't a good collateral risk.

rasberry Posted On 2/20/2009 11:43:35 AM

He who knows, Thank your for adding lucidity to the discussion. If horcents and pundant don't understand the folly of Golden West's business plan after reading your post, then they are just not capable of understanding the difference between collateral based lending and cash flow based lending.

Chaz Seale Posted On 2/20/2009 11:53:45 AM

Several things could be add to your excellent review that might be worthy. 1. World had a "Do the Right Thing" policy where you would commit to never refinancing or taking any action for a borrower unless it was it their best interest. 2. No one at World was ever demeaned for making loans that would be of high quality, therefore in the best interest of the company, as opposed to selling the loans through the secondary market. 3. The consumer protections in the World "Pick-A-Pay" product far exceeded any other Option ARM. 4. World was always an extremely well run company operationally as well, as proven by both their tight expense controls and their low loan losses, which you mentioned. 5. An additional meaningful review of World loan losses would be to analyze the percent of losses before Wachovia's purchase of world compared to the % after to purchase. The standard phrase used to the field was "Wachovia has a greater appetite for risk". 6. The example shown on the show may have been an error, since loan agents are known to push the envelope, but it is 100% chance that the individual making such a manipulation would have been dismissed immediately when they were caught. There was never any grey area for falsifying files. 60 Minutes ran a story based on one very poor employee out of 13,000 and some unnamed others. 60 Minutes contacted very few other employees or senior executives. If they had, they would have received rave reviews of the Sandlers, Jim Judd, and Russ Kettell. These were individuals who people were universally proud to work for.

He who knows Posted On 2/20/2009 12:09:37 PM

Hero worship aside, you don't have a foggy clue what you are talking about. Golden West had no charge-offs in the last 10 years because they would modify or recast loans to keep from showing losses. They held the loans in protfolio because they made more money on modifying. The first thing they did when you called to say "I'm in trouble and can't make my payments" was to ask for a credit card number. They'd then recast your loan for a fee and reduce your payment. They held these loans because they operated under the erroneous assumption that property values were always going to go up. Thier lending practices were not borrower risk-based, they were collateral-risk based. And it turned out, California wasn't a good collateral risk.

Beatriz Posted On 2/20/2009 2:16:20 PM

It’s a shame that a program that is so widely watched could be so incorrect and unfair. At the very least one would expect some balance--too bad they did not interview someone like you who knows something about the bank’s practices and could be objective.

Ann O'Hearn Posted On 2/20/2009 2:30:02 PM

I live in Menlo Park, CA and have excellent credit ratings. I beg to differ with you. I refinanced with WSB in 2003 and had nothing but trouble. The personnel working with me were not licensed, altered my papers, took money (subtracted) from my credit card which they had as part of my personnel information and the Notary Public smudged his stamp. This is just a handful of illegalities I faced with this bank. I filed a complaint with the San Mateo County DA's Office and eventually went to the FBI with all of my information. The bank cost me thousands of dollars. I contacted Loan Offices at Golden West in Oakland (name upon request) and the Sandlers. I received a check about 6 months later for the illegal withdrawal from my credit card. The Sandlers never responded. This is when I went to the FBI. They were very interested in my information and kept me in the office for about 2 hours. This bank had a least one triangle scheme working (broker, title company, bank personnel)...and I am sure that there were more. I withdrew from the bank quietly and quickly before the Palo Alto office was made aware. There are most likely many others like me.

EisSteveMan Posted On 2/20/2009 7:58:20 PM

Your comment: " Yes, Golden West’s loan portfolio will suffer incredibly high loan losses--not because of shoddy underwriting. Rather, the properties the company lent against are enduring a one-in-100 year event with respect to home prices. In an environment like that, losses will rise, no matter how judicious you are. " Isn't this like saying your hedge fund would have made money in 2008 had the longs not imploded? We bottom when your fund closes shop. The market can be more irrational than you can stay solvent.

Ex-Bishop Associate Posted On 2/21/2009 12:40:40 AM

Some questions to ask Bishop about his prior ethics: Did you ever represent unlisted start-up companies in the Silicon Valley selling their stock without a license to unsophisticated clients and receiving finder fees without declaring the income? Weren't you sued on a number of occassions while at Smith Barney for misrepresentation and misleading investors and didn't Smith Barney have to settle these cases out of court? Weren't you asked to leave Smith Barney due to your sales activities. Were you forced to change industries as a result of your reputation.

RW Posted On 2/22/2009 10:56:14 AM

It's almost funny to me how intellectually dishonest this is. 1. The best you can come up with against Bishop is that he's an "abrasive jerk?" If he were dishonest, or had anything significant to gain by speaking out against his bosses, that would be a legitimate criticism. But you don't have that. You just think he shouldn't be paid attention to because he was "abrasive." 2. You argue that OptionARMs were a good product because charge-offs were low through 2005? Of course they were! The credit cycle never stopped expanding, allowing easy refinancing! As soon as the credit cycle turned over, option ARMs defaulted in spectacularly high numbers. This loan "product" brought down every large bank that made them: Countrywide, Downey, Fed, BankUnited, Wells Fargo (via Wachovia, via GoldenWest), WaMu. All of them, gone because the implied future default rates on these loans wiped out their capital. You need to read Minsky and his financial instability hypothesis. 3. Tightening it's standards!?!?! Because the % of loans funded went down?!?!?! Did you bother to check the actual of number of applications received? Or, more importantly, the dollar volume? The % on its own means nothing, and you know that. What was the total dollar volume of loans funded? It exploded after 2005, the period you conveniently forget to discuss. 4. Of course World Savings pushed mortgages on people who couldn't afford them. The loans are defaulting like crazy, and you know that. This means, by definition, that the people who received them couldn't afford them. And please, don't argue that it was the housing market's fault and not the loan itself. Had the market never gone down, the loans would have performed just fine. That is a patently absurd argument and I'll tell you why: the REASON the housing market got so lofty was BECAUSE of these products. Ever-expanding credit was the reason for ever-expanding house prices. The bid doesn't go up, unless the buyer c

Interested Posted On 2/22/2009 6:20:34 PM

I don't care if it was a 1 in 100 year drop in home prices. When your loan portfolio is 50% non-performing, one has to wonder about the business model. These losses have wiped out 30 years of profts, and thus the entire positive impact of the Sandler's career. That said, I'd like to see what happened to standards from the date of the Wachovia purchase. It is here where the real problem exists.

xbanker66 Posted On 2/22/2009 11:21:26 PM

By putting Bud Baker and the Sandlers together, in your opinion, is very appropriate. Both completely ruined what used to be the best bank in America...Wachovia. The fact that Wachovia's Board supported the acquisition of Golden West at the egotistic urging of Ken Thompson was the most naive and ignorant decision a supposedly knowledgable Board could make at that time. Real estate values, particularly on the "Wrong Coast", had peaked ...with hindsight. However, anyone with reasonable intelligence would know that the unrealistic climb in values was unsustainable. Nothing goes up forever. That was obvious to the analysts and even to me in questioning a member of the Board who, at least, put his money where his mouth was. Tom, I rarely agree with CBS on anything; but in this case, you are the one who has got it so wrong that your credibility and knowledge is in serious question.

chispa Posted On 2/23/2009 2:00:58 PM

60 minutes did an excellent job giving the gebneral public a little insight how they are being scammed by banks and the rich. There is a saying " lies lies and statistics". which was certainly used in this piece. One example: What are the numbers of loans being approved instead of the % applications approved. When will the general public open their eyes. This propaganda journalism is only meant to create once more a veil over your eyes.

Paul D. Posted On 2/23/2009 2:33:07 PM

Just because the Sandlers are good citizens doesn't mean that they can't make business "mistakes". There is absolutely no question that that the World Savings, WAMUs, Bank Uniteds & other option ARM lenders are partially responsible for our economic bust. Lending money to individuals where you're not even collecting the interest due and qualifiying them based on stated income are at the core of the real estate bubble. Where was World's Quality Control (QC) program? Lenders that I knew, then, with "strong" QC culture would have customers provide them with an IRS Form 4506 (Request for Copy of Tax Return. I am aware of some major lenders that found in excesss of 50% of their stated borrowers lied (surprise!) about their income. What was World Savings experience? Some lenders utilized a reasonablness test on stated income loans. From actual World Savings transactions that I'm aware of, it's readily apparent that World Savings did not. Did anyone from World tell you about their "Quick Qualifying Loan Program"? Two items in your above blog are particularly troublesome. First, you attack the character of the former World Savings Employee. What does his character have to do with the facts as presented in the 60 Minutes segment. Are you suggesting that he's lying about what he saw occur at World Savings. Clearly there were loans made by World that should not have been made. Did the Sandlers know about the fraud that perpetrated by some, probably not; but they did allow a lending program to be offered that made fraud easy to commit. Second, you provide support for the option arm program in the form of charge-off history. How could you fail to omit 2006 to present. You're missing the data that clearly demonstrates the risk associated with this lending product. CBS does know what it was talking about. On this one, Tom, you obviously do not!

Paul D. Posted On 2/23/2009 2:33:42 PM

Just because the Sandlers are good citizens doesn't mean that they can't make business "mistakes". There is absolutely no question that that the World Savings, WAMUs, Bank Uniteds & other option ARM lenders are partially responsible for our economic bust. Lending money to individuals where you're not even collecting the interest due and qualifiying them based on stated income are at the core of the real estate bubble. Where was World's Quality Control (QC) program? Lenders that I knew, then, with "strong" QC culture would have customers provide them with an IRS Form 4506 (Request for Copy of Tax Return. I am aware of some major lenders that found in excesss of 50% of their stated borrowers lied (surprise!) about their income. What was World Savings experience? Some lenders utilized a reasonablness test on stated income loans. From actual World Savings transactions that I'm aware of, it's readily apparent that World Savings did not. Did anyone from World tell you about their "Quick Qualifying Loan Program"? Two items in your above blog are particularly troublesome. First, you attack the character of the former World Savings Employee. What does his character have to do with the facts as presented in the 60 Minutes segment. Are you suggesting that he's lying about what he saw occur at World Savings. Clearly there were loans made by World that should not have been made. Did the Sandlers know about the fraud that perpetrated by some, probably not; but they did allow a lending program to be offered that made fraud easy to commit. Second, you provide support for the option arm program in the form of charge-off history. How could you fail to omit 2006 to present. You're missing the data that clearly demonstrates the risk associated with this lending product. CBS does know what it was talking about. On this one, Tom, you obviously do not!

Paul D. Posted On 2/23/2009 2:47:13 PM

Just because the Sandlers are good citizens doesn't mean that they can't make business "mistakes". There is absolutely no question that that the World Savings, WAMUs, Bank Uniteds & other option ARM lenders are partially responsible for our economic bust. Lending money to individuals where you're not even collecting the interest due and qualifiying them based on stated income are at the core of the real estate bubble. Where was World's Quality Control (QC) program? Lenders that I knew, then, with "strong" QC culture would have customers provide them with an IRS Form 4506 (Request for Copy of Tax Return. I am aware of some major lenders that found in excesss of 50% of their stated borrowers lied (surprise!) about their income. What was World Savings experience? Some lenders utilized a reasonablness test on stated income loans. From actual World Savings transactions that I'm aware of, it's readily apparent that World Savings did not. Did anyone from World tell you about their "Quick Qualifying Loan Program"? Two items in your above blog are particularly troublesome. First, you attack the character of the former World Savings Employee. What does his character have to do with the facts as presented in the 60 Minutes segment. Are you suggesting that he's lying about what he saw occur at World Savings. Clearly there were loans made by World that should not have been made. Did the Sandlers know about the fraud that perpetrated by some, probably not; but they did allow a lending program to be offered that made fraud easy to commit. Second, you provide support for the option arm program in the form of charge-off history. How could you fail to omit 2006 to present. You're missing the data that clearly demonstrates the risk associated with this lending product. CBS does know what it was talking about. On this one, Tom, you obviously do not!

scamp Posted On 2/23/2009 5:03:35 PM

Tom, Thanks for taking the time to shed some light on this 60 Minutes clip. It just so happens that I watched the clip and my take-away was that World Savings was a out-of control "mouse house". The clip also showed an old black lady who refied 4 times in 4 years and could no longer make the payments. She blamed her financial problems on the 4 refis, even though she took out a bucket load of cash each time.......duh Keep up the good work.......

MM in Philadelphia Posted On 2/23/2009 5:32:19 PM

Yes, the Sandlers were good bankers but they also knew when to sell. A decline in World's percentage of funded applications over the period in question may have had many causes such as: Wholesale (broker) Vs. Retail origination probably represented an increasing percentage of loans originated during the same time period. Wholesale production tends to have higher delinquency than retail so more poor applications may have been submitted and rejected. Additionally, brokers often send the same application to multiple lenders so withdrawal rates may have been higher. If you were to compare World's residential underwriting guidelines from 2004, 2005 and 2006 you would certainly find that standards had relaxed each year. However, if you also compared World's guidelines against the guidelines of it's primary competitors for those same years you would probably find that World's were slightly tighter. Option ARMS had been a good product when used by their originally intended borrowing base and underwritten responsibly. Once they became an affordability product and lenders granted second mortgages behind them - we were doomed.

EL Posted On 2/24/2009 3:41:17 PM

I'm glad I didn't see the 60 Minutes show because I would have been seething. Most of what passes for financial journalism these days is written by people who don't know anything about banking. They keep repeating what someone else has said, until the entire world (which also doesn't know anything about banking) believes them. Thanks for cutting through the b.s.

Ex-World Employee Posted On 3/3/2009 2:22:22 PM

Gotta love how you can slander a guy that has the guts to tell his side of the story. Just because someone is an abrasive jerk, does not make them a liar. If that was the case, then the majority of World Savings Executive management are lying, they were some of the most abrasive jerks out there. World Savings is just like any other corporate company, hypocrisy at its finest!

formerWorldappraiser Posted On 3/4/2009 12:07:05 PM

Stop believing everything you hear/see in the media...Those of us who have had to go work for other companies (Wachovia, etc) are seeing just how much better and smarter World Savings was operated.

David H -x World Employee Posted On 3/4/2009 3:15:51 PM

Thank you for bringing to light the irresponsible reporting of 60 Minutes. It was an pleasure working for the Sandler's and the integrity of how they did business should be applauded.

Exworlder Posted On 3/4/2009 3:36:47 PM

To Rasberry: You blame them as they should have known about the housing meltdown BUT you have forgotten that in 40 years they have been thru housing booms and busts and made it thru just fine...recall the 80's and the early 90's??? How soon we forget....you should do some homework on GDW before you say something you don't fully understand. EVERYBODY in mortgage got hurt with this bust. And Mr. Brown is absolutely correct World had the best track record of ANY mortgage lender. Wachovia were east coast wall street bankers NOT mortgage people as we were. Once they took over they had no clue what to do about the portfolio, they just wanted fee income as do all 'banks', World was never about fee income but interest income. Wells is now realizing this and I feel will bring some ex-World people back as they truly know the portfolio and how to handle this mess. Best of luck to any people laid off due to this market mess.

David H -x World Employee Posted On 3/4/2009 3:39:01 PM

Thank you for bringing to light the irresponsible reporting of 60 Minutes. It was an pleasure working for the Sandler's and the integrity of how they did business should be applauded.

Exworlder Posted On 3/4/2009 3:39:23 PM

To: Ex-World Employee How well did you perform at World? Some of the nicest people I ever worked with and for were at World, it was a family environment. Seems like you are part of the 5%...

Exworlder Posted On 3/4/2009 5:17:11 PM

To worldvictim: unless it was your primary the 3 day right of recession doesn't apply. also did you read your documents prior to close? you had them...and all world reps were licensed under the bank charter...if the broker deceived World with a fake license that is illegal and they should be punished. did you read anything at close? sounds like you should have done your homework...

Former World UW/REP/MGR Posted On 3/4/2009 8:54:53 PM

Thanks for bringing the truth to light. 60 Minutes is a show I will never watch again. As far as I am concerned they are a televised tabloid. Makes me sick. I worked for World for 6.5 years. Great Company, Great Product (Pick-A-Pay), I plan on being the very last Pick-A-Pay on whatever company's books it ends up on.

Dave Baker Posted On 3/7/2009 5:24:20 PM

It is a sad state of affairs whereby we have a medium that is the FIRST to use our First Admendment to their defense BUT is also the FIRST to ABUSE it! We should have laws that protect that freedom of our First Admendment by insuring that ALL media must not be allowed to distort any situation in order to promote that situation out of context. Shame on CBS and further yet, SHAME on the executives that control 60 Minutes. You are no better than Bernie Madoff in your field of occupation.

Wachovia Layoff Victim Posted On 3/8/2009 10:37:28 PM

I may be late in reading this, but I was a loan officer with World from 2001 thru layoff in 2007. total of 14 + years, and I did not drink the Sandler Koolaid. My funding ratio was about 65%, which was a little better than most because I did take the time to review each application with the mortgage brokers. Problem was that Wachovia did loose kabillions and kabillions of the ARM portfolio, because they went thru a massive cash crunch in 2nd qtr of 2008 and practically 'DUMPed' as much of the portfolio as they possibly could to raise as much cash as they could. Also, Wachovia DID NOT understand that the ARM product was the safest investor mortgage out there. It is part fixed, and part flexible. Do your homework before you start throwing stones. Wachovia should have left the management team in place at World and raked in the profits. But NO, they were the fat and sassy MBA types who knew more than the liberal, AKORN supporting Democratic couple from Oakland. Now what about that Koolaid?

Former World Manager Posted On 3/10/2009 11:07:49 AM

Paul D, your inexperience in the lending industry is apparent based on your comments. You act as if no one knew that borrowers were lying on the stated income on the application. Every single loan officer, underwriter, processor, and manager in the company knew of the predisposition for fraud in the borrowers stated income on the application. No one cared; loans were not underwritten as if that stated income was accurate. Instead other more reliable factors were used in underwriting World Savings loans. Unlike most lending institutions, World's underwriters actually used common sense, individual thought and their own minds to determine whether a loan was a good one. A lot gets pointed in the direction of "income" being the reason for losses but the truth is that although fraud losses existed, they were a very small percentage of the actual losses seen. What good is knowing the exact income of a borrower when the main reason for default is layoffs, loss of income or other such unexpected circumstances? The one true statement I've seen here is that the company loosened its lending restrictions. What hasn't fully been mentioned is the timing; in fact it occurred when Wachovia retired or forced out the competent managers at Golden West, and started having its senior managers override denied loans so as not to ruffle the feathers of some customer with $20,000 in their checking account. Those loans made after Wachovia imposed its own looser approval standards are the ones that are the backbreakers. The Sandlers, I'm certain knew their business top to bottom, and it's sad to see their underwriting criticized when most of the losses are attributable to those incurred since the merger was completed and they were no longer in control.
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